Diversity and inclusion has been on everyone’s lips for the past few years, but our recent focus on this area hasn’t necessarily translated to the equitable society that we had hoped for. How to make our agencies diverse in a way that takes it in a new and better direction? How do we meaningfully engage with people from different backgrounds and experiences from ourselves and include them in the conversations that need to be had. In this episode, we are joined by Tomasz Dyl, MD of GottaBe! who knows more than most on this issue.
00:00:01:17 - 00:00:08:20
Ellie
Today on the Agency Collective Tales. I am joined by Tomasz Dyl from
Gottabe! Marketing. Thanks so much for being on the podcast.
00:00:09:07 - 00:00:10:22
Tomasz
Hello! And thanks for having me.
00:00:11:09 - 00:00:20:24
Ellie
You're very, very welcome. So, Tomasz, like we always do at the
Agency Collective Tales, let's start at the beginning. Tell me a bit
about how your agency started.
00:00:21:07 - 00:00:43:05
Tomasz
A few days ago we've turned 14, so it's been a quite a long journey
over the 14 years. I started the business when I was just finishing
at college. I was 17 at the time, so hence I give away how old I am.
The idea was to create an agency that would help bridge the gap and
allow companies to better connect with some of the ethnic minorities
that were coming into the country at the time.
00:00:43:06 - 00:01:10:19
Tomasz
Obviously, 8 countries joined the European Union in 2004, including
Poland, where I'm originally from, and the idea was to build the
gap, build a bridge and allow companies to better communicate. And
there's this massive group of people, massive opportunity. Yet
again, no one is taking advantage of it. So for me, it was about
being able to say to brands saying:
"Hello, I can help you, I can get you in front of these guys and I
can do it in a very different way to how you probably go about it."
00:01:10:19 - 00:01:29:00
Tomasz
Because at the time I did it in Polish, we did it in Hungarian, we
did it in Czech and now we serve our clients in 45 different
languages, doing exactly what we did 14 years ago, but now even in
much more through different channels, through different options. And
that's the little journey. And we've grown quite a bit, obviously
back in the day
00:01:29:00 - 00:01:38:21
Tomasz
it was just myself. Now we've a strong team of 12 and we've also got
two offices in the UK and one in Ireland. So we're working across
the pond as well, as well as having two offers in the UK
00:01:38:21 - 00:01:39:23
Ellie
That's amazing.
00:01:40:03 - 00:01:49:08
Ellie
So did your 17 year old self have any idea about the scale that you
were going to grow to or did you just see a gap and think:
"I'm going to do some good things here?"
00:01:49:16 - 00:02:15:19
Tomasz
Yes, certainly it was spotting the gap and the whole plan was to do
it for three years , whilst I was at uni, get that experience and
then to be able to go to a nine to five job, hopefully being bit
more experienced and saying:
"Hey guys, I've actually got some experience now."
Well, that plan didn't really materialise, asyou can tell because
I'm still here, still running the business.
But I'm glad I didn't, because I think I would have been so lost
working in a different agency and not being able to build my own
little baby.
00:02:16:01 - 00:02:35:00
Tomasz
So yes, certainly it's about finding a gap and taking that gap and
really evolving it. And the last two years have really been crazy
because whilst the pandemic was actually out there and I know a lot
of agencies struggled, we've actually pivoted very well and we've
had more signings in the last two years than we have probably in the
last five years.
00:02:35:08 - 00:02:54:24
Tomasz
But that's because we saw things like what impact of BAME on COVID
and COVID impacting the lower class. And that's opened eyes to a lot
of brands who've never considered multicultural marketing before to
all of a sudden think:
" We need to actually go out and speak to our customers. We need to
target them in a different way. to how we are targeted."
00:02:55:09 - 00:03:00:05
Tomasz
And people keep on telling us we under-represented so we need to act
on our representation somehow.
00:03:00:18 - 00:03:12:17
Ellie
Brilliant. So how do you tackle that with brands that perhaps don't
think diversity, equity and inclusion is important?
Do you gently do it, or are you just upfront and say:
"Come on guys, what are you doing here?"
00:03:13:10 - 00:03:37:02
Tomasz
Oh, we're very upfront. We spent the last two years educating
brands, so from our research and from what we understand is only one
in five brands at the moment are doing anything in this space. It's
changing. It's slightly moving to probably one in three but it's
still a huge gap. I mean, we've got brands out that have never
considered it and don't see a reason why they should do.
They bluntly told us to our faces:
"We don't need to do it, we're quite happy."
00:03:37:02 - 00:03:59:09
Tomasz
"Customers are coming in and we don't need to do anything else."
And on the other hand, you've got companies who are thinking:
"We really need to be able to change this. We really need to be
able to make a difference and ensure that we're talking to
everybody."
We're continuously educating brands and agencies as well, because I
think the problem is between the two: Agencies are not doing enough
to be able to say to them:
"We're needing you to push you. We need you to do something more."
00:03:59:09 - 00:04:22:23
Tomasz
And equally brands need to do more and they need to start realising
that the world has changed - the society has really gone beyond what
the traditional family of two plus one is and so on. And we need to
start thinking how do we represent ourselves? And is the marketing
that we're putting out there really representative of today's
society and today's audience?
00:04:22:23 - 00:04:26:00
Tomasz
And for most companies, unfortunately it isn't
00:04:26:00 - 00:04:51:01
Ellie
Absolutely not. I think as well, it's just the:
"It's going all right, so why should I change anything?", rather
than the bigger picture.
I think if agencies and brands don't step up and start taking
action and making changes to make themselves more diverse in their
way of thinking, more diverse in their creative projects, that
they're putting out there, they're going to be so far behind the
times that brands will just be turned off by them completely.
00:04:51:08 - 00:05:18:02
Tomasz
Absolutely. And as I said, that's why I think the responsibility we
put into two parts. It's not just the brands, it's the agencies that
have to do more as well. And we're seeing a shift in one way where
the agencies are bringing in more diverse teams, they're looking at
other options, but I don't think they're still utilising the options
that we have when it comes to targeting, because putting an ad with
a South Asian family on ITV is not necessarily where that audience
is going to be.
00:05:18:02 - 00:05:42:19
Tomasz
They're watching Zee TV, they're reading Eastern Eye, they're
listening to Sunrise Radio and not Kiss! So we've got to be mindful
that there is over 250 different publications that are printed in
other languages than English and are consumed collectively by a
group of 6 million people. So we need to be able to utilise that. So
there is a whole brand new world out there that for a lot hasn't
been discovered and that's what we're trying to do.
00:05:42:20 - 00:05:51:14
Tomasz
We're saying: "Let us take you on this little journey that you
haven't been on and let's see how we can get you in front of people
that you think you are in the front, but actually, you're not.
00:05:52:14 - 00:06:03:06
Ellie
That's really admirable. As an agency founder, what do you think
agency founders can be doing to make their teams more diverse? Is
there anything you've particularly done with your team?
00:06:04:01 - 00:06:30:11
Tomasz
So we do things like learning to learn, where we take on the
culture, we take on a country, and we do a deep dive into them to be
able to educate our staff. But equally educate ourselves on what
else could we be knowing about this audience and what could we do
with them?
In terms of diversifying the staff, I think one of the things we've
done and that works quite well for us is anonymous interviews and
from the perspective that when we get applications, we don't get to
see people's names.
00:06:30:11 - 00:06:53:08
Tomasz
So straight away, if someone's name is Muhammad it doesn't go into
the bin because we don't think that person is going to do. Where I
know in some agencies, unfortunately people have experienced it.
We've a colleague internally who, because of her background being
Romanian, applied for jobs and because of her name, she just
straightaway got declined. Then she change her name but didn't
change her CV to Kelly and all of a sudden, started to get
interviews.
00:06:53:08 - 00:07:08:01
Tomasz
So we're judging people by the name. We haven't even got to what
their experience and everything else is. We've just seen the name
and we think: "Oh, they're foreign, we don't want them." We should
be giving everybody equal opportunity no matter what background they
are from what that name they are.
00:07:08:08 - 00:07:12:05
Ellie
Yeah. Have you faced any prejudice then with your name as an agency
founder?
00:07:12:17 - 00:07:36:14
Tomasz
Yes. We have been told we're very foreign and ten years ago I took
quite big offence to it. But right now I think if you not
diversifying, you're not inclusive, I think you're not in the right
space. I think my name is relatively similar to a English spelling
of Tomasz. I say relatively, it's still got a few letter difference
and my surname being Dyl could be anywhere in the world.
00:07:36:22 - 00:07:51:05
Tomasz
I don't necessarily get as much probably as people who might have
other names but we have experienced this where we pitched for a big
brand and the feedback to us is that they would prefer to work with
a brand or an agency that is more British than foreign.
00:07:51:05 - 00:07:52:21
Ellie
God. That's so mad!
00:07:52:21 - 00:08:12:19
Ellie
That's society. We've got to get used to it. It's not always going
to be all lovely and useful. Sometimes you will experience that, but
it's not just based on someone's nationality. You can experience the
same thing based on your sexuality, based on your colour hair and
all that. So there's always going to be someone who's not happy with
how you look, how you come across, and they will pick on you.
00:08:13:01 - 00:08:32:02
Tomasz
That could happen to a Polish person, that can happen to a Romanian
person or that can happen to a Chinese person. Look what we've seen
two years ago, Chinese people being beat up in the streets because
they brought Covid into the UK. I don't necessarily think it was
them personally that brought it, but we have seen people being
abused, thrown at, beaten up in the streets because they brought
Covid.
00:08:32:03 - 00:08:40:06
Tomasz
It is a global pandemic. Wake up. Come on, let's look at the news.
Let's see what's going on now. And if you're not shortsighted, I
think you need to have a real good self-check.
00:08:40:12 - 00:08:50:07
Ellie
Absolutely. Yeah. Can you talk me through any real success stories
that you've had with clients where you have really transformed their
reach?
00:08:51:06 - 00:08:58:17
Tomasz
Yeah, I would use example of a recent campaign, which earlier this
week we have actually won an award for campaign of the Year of the
GG2 Diversity & Inclusivity Awards.
00:08:58:24 - 00:08:59:16
Ellie
That's amazing.
00:09:00:05 - 00:09:26:18
Tomasz
Thank you. It's our work with the NHS, working with the Southampton
and Hampshire and the Isle of Wight, CCG, the clinical commissioning
group, as well as the Hampshire County Council. And the campaign was
very challenging. It was to try and get more uptake from the Eastern
European Community on the vaccination.
The campaign we faced nationwide, not just in Hampshire. Eastern
Europeans, for very odd reasons, have been very reluctant to it.
00:09:26:23 - 00:09:57:00
Tomasz
They didn't necessarily believe in Covid, and they didn't
necessarily think that they had to get vaccinated. So we ran a
campaign where we tried to get rid of the myths. Equally, we tried
to deliver educational content to people so it wasn't necessarily
hand holding them and walking them to the nearest vaccination
centre. We said to them:
"We want to give you a choice, but we want to give you the right
information."
And when we did the initial research, when we did the focus groups,
we found that people were reluctant because there wasn't enough
information and they couldn't find any information.
00:09:57:00 - 00:10:16:20
Tomasz
They found the gov website being extremely boring, not easy to
understand. The language over there was very difficult for them, and
they were simply looking for information such as what is a side
effects, what are the ingredients? Because some people have got
allergies, etc. And what are the options in terms of what are the
different vaccines and how do they differ?
00:10:16:22 - 00:10:39:09
Tomasz
So we put all this together into a bilingual leaflet and we work
with local employers, we work with the local ethnic media, but also
done a lot of work on the ground in terms of speaking to people at
various places, whether that's that ethnic Polish shop or that's a
Polish church or Romanian Saturday school and utilise the
opportunity to talk to people, answer any questions and educate
them.
00:10:39:16 - 00:10:55:00
Tomasz
And again, of course the direction was that once you're ready, come
and get vaccinated, but it wasn't necessarily saying to people:
"We've now got you, I'm gonna take your hands, I'm going to put on
a handcuff and I'm going to take you to the nearest vaccination
centre."
That wasn't the case. The idea was to increase the awareness and
drive.
00:10:55:01 - 00:11:00:11
Tomasz
In Hampshire, the "White, other" as it's being referred to, became
in the top three of the most vaccinated.
00:11:00:17 - 00:11:01:21
Ellie
Amazing.
00:11:02:11 - 00:11:24:14
Tomasz
For us, this particular project was even more important from the
perspective that it had a real purpose. We change people's life by
explaining to them and giving them the information they weren't
getting in first place. And being able to deliver it in a language
that they understood meant that their information was getting
through to them much quicker, than trying to tell them:
"Go on the gov website and find out information there, cause Is it
all there."
00:11:24:21 - 00:11:32:21
Tomasz
So very often we presume things, but unfortunately we can't do that.
We've got to listen to the people that are around us and find out
what can we do to help them.
00:11:33:19 - 00:11:45:06
Ellie
That's wonderful Tomasz What is it that's been your key lesson over
the past 14 years. Is there anything that you wish you had known in
the first couple of years of running your agency?
00:11:45:20 - 00:11:59:16
Tomasz
Starting a business when you're 17, you're very lost. I didn't know
much about pricing structure. I didn't do much about how to pitch. I
didn't know how to sell. I had to learn it all by myself. And it was
a very lonely place back then. There was not as much support as
there is around now.
00:11:59:16 - 00:12:26:10
Tomasz
With growth, for me, I had to get my feet on the ground and try to
work it out test the waters, etc. If anything, would have been nice
to have a mentor who runs an agency and is able to see and take me
as somebody that I can mould and get better. So I think I would have
really appreciated that. But 14 years on and now I'm on the Goldman
Sachs 10,000 Small Businesses programme, looking to improve the
profitability and grow our business.
00:12:26:10 - 00:12:30:16
Tomasz
So I think I haven't missed out on anything. I'm just 14 years a
little bit late!
00:12:31:17 - 00:12:52:07
Ellie
Not at all. The thing that I learned, running The Agency Collective
is that everybody's on their own journey. You can't mark your
success by looking at another agency because the number of staff
that you have, you might be comfortable with. The lifestyle that
you've got, the work life balance that you've got, the aspirations
that you've got. What it is that feeds your soul is so completely
different agency to agency.
00:12:52:11 - 00:13:04:20
Ellie
I definitely think I'm seeing more of a move for profit with
purpose. It's not enough to just be doing good work. What's behind
it? What change are you looking to make? Are you really seeing that
with clients that you're working with?
00:13:05:09 - 00:13:26:07
Tomasz
Absolutely. I think the reason the clients come to us is that they
really want to make a purpose and they want to make a change and not
necessarily getting the expertise from the mainstream agencies that
they work with, and they have to look for specialised ones and this
is why they come to us. But at the same time, we work with a lot of
other agencies who simply put their hand up to the client and say:
00:13:26:07 - 00:13:49:09
Tomasz
"Look, this is outside of our comfort zone. We could probably do
it, but we're probably not going to deliver it in the best form. And
the best possible option. However, we have a partner agency that can
do that. And let me introduce you to Tomasz and we will work
alongside Tomasz and delivering this campaign. So we will look after
this aspect of the campaign and they will look after the ethnic and
multicultural aspects. We will create one campaign, but it will be
seen by everybody."
00:13:49:09 - 00:14:11:07
Tomasz
So it's great that some agencies have already identified us and are
very keen to work with agencies like us who are just simply an
extension to their team because we're not looking to steal any work
from anybody. We have our own niche and that's where we want to
focus and that's what we want to continue doing as much as we can go
after brands ourselves and do it, I think agencies also need to be
able to say to the clients:
00:14:11:07 - 00:14:18:08
Tomasz
"Let's change how we position ourselves, how we market to your
customers, and let's look at how we can collaborate with others."
00:14:18:08 - 00:14:27:10
Tomasz
It can open new doors and it's not just for the ethnic minorities.
There is a fantastic agency called the Purple Goat that is focussing
on disabled influencers.
00:14:27:10 - 00:14:53:11
Tomasz
I can't think of a single campaign that's actually showed a disabled
influencer, but these guys have got their own niche and they work
with some of the world's biggest brands right now because they found
a niche and they're going for it. So I think that there is room for
everybody. And I think this is what for us, the big focus for 2022
is to make more friends with other agency owners and say to them:
"Let's work together.
00:14:54:08 - 00:15:12:22
Ellie
That's brilliant. Just to finish up Tomasz, what would be the
biggest piece of advice you could offer agencies that are perhaps
overwhelmed by the diversity, equity and inclusion piece? They don't
know where to start. They don't know what to do. What would be some
top tips if maybe you could offer them?
00:15:13:07 - 00:15:32:24
Tomasz
I would say you can do two things. You can it to try and find the
solution yourself and try and learn this. But I've been in this
industry for 14 years and I'm still learning every day something
different about the different groups of people that surround me. And
there isn't a day where don't I go:
"Wow, I didn't notice this. I could have really benefited from this
five years ago",
00:15:32:24 - 00:15:44:24
Tomasz
But by simply having this conversation with different people,
whether that's a Muslim person, whether that is somebody who is
Sikh, or whether that's somebody who is Bulgarian or even a Polish
person, you get to know these things.
00:15:45:06 - 00:15:58:14
Tomasz
Start with doing your own research and try to get as much
information as possible. There are various books. There is so much
content online, whether that's webinars, whether that's interviews,
podcasts, you can really listen to and get to know this.
00:15:58:14 - 00:16:09:02
Tomasz
And secondly, don't be afraid to reach out to people who are in the
agency space, who specialise in that area, and you find that they're
actually very welcoming and they'll happily give a lot of advice.
00:16:09:05 - 00:16:18:02
Tomasz
I think the biggest advice I can say is go out there and speak to
people. There are amazing community groups. You can really get real
insight.
00:16:18:02 - 00:16:33:18
Tomasz
There's so many different reports out there that you can get your
hands on on data and everything else. And even the latest
information - that new settlement scheme. Again, we're shocked as to
how little awareness there is and how agencies are not utilising the
information.
00:16:33:18 - 00:16:47:20
Tomasz
But it gives you a breakdown into everything into every European
nationality and tells you where they're located, how many of them
are in the country. And that's a mind blowing exercise because if
we're running a campaign to Ealing for a client we can think:
00:16:47:20 - 00:16:54:23
Tomasz
"Oh, right, okay, we can really get into these groups because that's
what the new settlement scheme information has given us and is the
most up to date information."
00:16:54:23 - 00:17:07:19
Tomasz
We don't have censuses yet. That's not going to come out for another
three or four months. We've already got other information they can
be utilising. So I would definitely say go out there and find their
information and you'd be amazed as to how much is out there.
00:17:08:22 - 00:17:28:12
Ellie
That's brilliant advice. Thank you. And what about internally, what
advice have you got for agencies whose team are all the same race
are all the same nationality? Are all around the same age? Because
lots of agencies say they just hire the best people for the job. And
what that means is it tends to be lots of carbon copies of the same
employee that they're hiring.
00:17:29:09 - 00:17:59:01
Tomasz
Yeah, I would definitely say try and minimise and strip down your
recruitment process, where you do blind interviews and everything
else. So you don't necessarily get to see the name, don't get to see
their age and just look at that. I think broaden your horizons in
terms of where you might be recruiting. You can advertise on Indeed,
LinkedIn, whatever it might be, or maybe you want to actually look
at some of the publications at the portals that are out there, even
The Voice, for example, which is one of the leading Afro-Caribbean
publications, they've got their own portal where you can advertise.
00:17:59:01 - 00:18:25:12
Tomasz
So if you're looking for somebody of Afro-Caribbean origins, equally
advertise on there, broaden your horizons where you can go out and
recruit. I think the other thing is look at the universities, where
there is a lot of talent and you can actually pick very nice
students who are of international background as well. They're able
to come in because you tend to find that people who are from a
different background tend to bring a lot of different expertise,
point of view, and they're very, very desired
00:18:25:12 - 00:18:33:08
Ellie
That's brilliant. Thank you so much. That's been really, really
great advice. Really looking forward to seeing what GottaBe! does
next!
00:18:33:14 - 00:18:34:03
Tomasz
Thank you.