In this episode, Ellie speaks to Alfie Payne from Ape Group. Alfie candidly discusses his agency journey, explaining he embraced his differences to succeed and how important it is to know your own value when you start an agency. He also discusses how Ape Group are ensuring staff cohesion and well being as they grow.
Meet The Agency Collective:
The Agency Collective is a peer support community for agency owners. It's a safe place to talk about your challenges openly – when you need the help most. It provides an opportunity for you to build new long-lasting relationships with people who can provide support and leads for future work.
Ape Technology Solutions are a digital solutions agency based in Lasham, Alton, providing digital marketing, IT architecture, and web design and development services to organisations.
00:00:00:06 - 00:00:07:17
Ellie
Today on the Agency Collective Tales, I am joined by Alfie Payne from Ape Group. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
00:00:08:00 - 00:00:09:09
Alfie
No worries!
Thank you for having me.
00:00:09:17 - 00:00:21:19
Ellie
My pleasure, beloved member of the Agency Collective. So first off Alfie, I just want to hear about you and how you started your agency. How was Ape born?
00:00:23:00 - 00:00:43:05
Alfie
What an interesting tale! So we are coming up to 18 months old. We were a limited company we became incorporated on 14th May 2020. That was the result of me becoming a very busy freelancer. So I was at college at the time. We'd obviously gone into the pandemic a few months before, and my skill set was building websites, was making
00:00:43:05 - 00:00:56:19
Alfie
good content and getting it in front of people. And I was helping like restaurants, cafes. Anyone that didn't need an online presence before suddenly found they needed one, and it was incredibly important. So I built a website or two. So I was 17 at a time, whilst I was at college.
00:00:57:00 - 00:01:08:01
Alfie
Then they started paying me for these websites, which was really rather exciting. And then all of a sudden I had more work than just I could handle and I needed other people to help. Blah blah blah get stepped forward to where we are now.
00:01:08:04 - 00:01:17:22
Alfie
In 2022 we're nearly 18 months old. We've worked with eight brands across four countries. I've got five PAYE employees and I'm 19 and this is where we're at.
00:01:18:16 - 00:01:26:19
Ellie
What the hell was I doing with my life when I was 19? It certainly wasn't starting a bloody business! Alfie, that is flipping incredible.
00:01:27:03 - 00:01:29:17
Alfie
I must be the AC's youngest member. Surely?
00:01:29:23 - 00:01:41:17
Ellie
Yeah, 100%, you are. How do you find that? Obviously, you're shit hot at what you do. You've got your head screwed on. Do people discriminate against you because of your age? Do clients potentially discriminate.
00:01:41:20 - 00:01:48:01
Alfie
So I'd love to remind you that the 2010 Equality Act has eight protected characteristics, one of which is age, Ellie.
00:01:48:12 - 00:01:52:22
Ellie
I know my Equality Act, my friend! Don't you worry! People have their bias.
00:01:53:02 - 00:02:09:18
Alfie
To be quite frank with you, if you've got that bias, then I'm sorry, I don't want t work with you, you know, we've worked with really quite big brands and we've worked with central London retailers. We've worked with international alcohol brands and we've done big things. After this I go onto a call with the government, where we're looking at an animation that we're producing.
00:02:09:18 - 00:02:13:05
Alfie
for them for an infomercial . We've done big things.
00:02:13:14 - 00:02:16:10
Ellie
Young in age, but not in ambition or reach.
00:02:16:16 - 00:02:31:16
Alfie
Try not to be, no. Don't get me wrong, my first payslips came from my own company. I've never had a job before. So when I sat down and was like, "Right, I need to hire some people." I was asking friends and whathaveyou about what happens when you start a job, when you start a job,
00:02:31:16 - 00:02:46:01
Alfie
how do I onboard you? What does that really look like? I brought in my co-director, Paul. He acts as sort of chairman. I run at 100 million miles an hour and he pulls the reins in and makes sure I'm doing things in a legal way, a compliant way, in a way that's scalable and what have you.
00:02:46:13 - 00:02:57:21
Alfie
Because I left college to pursue this. I don't have a degree. I'm not at university like a lot of my friends. So there's two sides to this obviously, for me as an agency owner - there's building this agency, which is doing quite well.
00:02:58:00 - 00:03:05:16
Alfie
We've got exciting plans for the year ahead, but also you're trying to build and protect my own life at my sort of twenties when they arrive in November.
00:03:05:23 - 00:03:11:09
Ellie
Crikey, how do you foresee navigating that? You know, a time when.
00:03:11:14 - 00:03:11:24
Alfie
Yeah.
00:03:12:07 - 00:03:21:09
Ellie
You're in your early twenties, late teens, you're footloose and fancy free. Maybe you've never had a full time job and you are now responsible for people's mortgages, not just your.
00:03:22:03 - 00:03:27:10
Alfie
But you know, I live at home with my dad. I signed an office lease before I rented a flat!
00:03:27:13 - 00:03:33:19
Ellie
You're obviously a super bloke and you've got your head screwed on and you can see the ridiculousness of it.
00:03:33:22 - 00:03:51:16
Alfie
It's absolutely bizarre, isn't it? The pandemic was obviously... and I don't like talking about the pandemic because it's a very negative thing. But it wasn't for me, it was a very positive opportunity that presented lots of things. So between Easter 2020 and December 2020, I was also a columnist at the Times Ed., where I was a student. Because I was a student navigating
00:03:51:16 - 00:04:04:17
Alfie
the business world, I was writing about all that. And that opened a load of doors and opportunities to just to network. And then you get talking. And then for the first probably twelve months, if not a bit longer, all of our clients came from direct referrals.
00:04:04:22 - 00:04:13:20
Alfie
I've actually got it saved on my laptop - this sort of network of :
'Oh well, this person came in to here, so they did this and they did this, and I was introduced by this person." And you just get this web, of...
00:04:13:20 - 00:04:14:08
Ellie
your network.
00:04:14:19 - 00:04:24:04
Alfie
Of your network. But it's really interesting to actually map how that got there. And had I not done that, I don't think I'd be having this conversation. This opportunity wouldn't have come up. That's really quite weird I look back on, isn't it?
00:04:24:15 - 00:04:34:23
Ellie
Yeah, it must be! How do you know what to do? Like, how do you know what you're doing? So you've obviously got a business partner, but have you had a business coach?
00:04:35:14 - 00:04:51:01
Alfie
A lot of it is, in that instant, not being a dickhead. If you're not a dickhead, then you look after your staff, and you look after your clients. That's the principal I live by. It's interesting because when I was at school, for example, maths was my weakest ever, I remember being sat in maths with my teacher thinking, "I'm going to really struggle, here.
00:04:51:11 - 00:05:02:05
Alfie
Are we going to pass this together?" And now I'm sat here in a business that's doing revenue of £150,000 in two years, managing the cash flow, the VAT, the PAYE etc. And numbers is actually one of my strongest areas, tat I enjoy the most.
00:05:02:05 - 00:05:10:20
Alfie
Because you have to get good at it, you have to learn it. All the guidance and stuff with changes in home working. And I think today is the day we're all back in the office or whatever.
00:05:10:20 - 00:05:14:02
Alfie
But you have to read it, you have to consume it, and that's how you do it.
00:05:14:19 - 00:05:19:00
Ellie
How have you gone about structuring your agency? So again, you...
00:05:19:01 - 00:05:19:12
Alfie
So...
00:05:19:17 - 00:05:21:16
Ellie
haven't got experience of the working world. So how...
00:05:22:14 - 00:05:41:19
Alfie
I'm not a middle manager. What's the difference between a line manager and the director? A lot of stalking "meet the team" pages of other agencies. Looking at how that does it, then looking at is that the right fit for us? So we've got a developer, a designer, an account manager / project manager and then a creative content creator, plus myself, plus Paul who stands as chairman.
00:05:41:19 - 00:05:54:18
Alfie
So there's a lot of trial and error. certainly in that in that sort of beginning, bit where we had so much momentum, so quickly. I mean, in our first quarter, we had 32 clients in three months, which was just ridiculous to have to comprehend and look at.
00:05:54:24 - 00:06:09:10
Alfie
And yeah, there were a few administrative mistakes. I was making mistakes and we're still making those. But it was going and looking at that structure and looking at what would we actually need? We have areally interesting approach to team meetings where I don't say that every Monday at 9.30, everybody's got to be on a zoom or in the office
00:06:09:11 - 00:06:20:06
Alfie
and having a meeting, because unless you've got something to talk about, there's no need to actually block that time out. So I'd rather have is one every two weeks or so that's an hour long, but is really good and really productive.
00:06:20:07 - 00:06:35:15
Alfie
Then saying "Right, we have to stand up every morning at 9AM and start working on the things." Because to be honest as well, we're very reactive as an agency. That was one of the things that I didn't realise -agencies sometimes a bit of reputation for being quite slow, and 'This is the campaign you're doing.
00:06:35:15 - 00:06:44:16
Alfie
This is the cquarterly plan." Whereas for us, I didn't want that. That's not how I worl. I'd get far too bored if that's what I was doing every day. If someone rings up and says, "Can we jump on this?" Yeah, definitely we can.
00:06:44:24 - 00:06:58:14
Alfie
So because of that ever moving dynamic that I try to have, we take that sort of approach to the structure of, yes, we've got a middle manager. Yes, you've got someone to report to because also I'm far too here, there and everywhere and get that. I wouldn't want to be managed by me, put it that way, beacuse...
00:06:58:17 - 00:07:02:23
Ellie
You've got a natural instinct just to be a good person and hire good people.
00:07:03:09 - 00:07:18:19
Alfie
I think that's the thing, isn't it? I think everyone can relate to right now the struggles of retaining people or salaries, of negotiating good working, et cetera. And one of the things we found is just be nice. I know that sounds really airy fairy but just look after people, give them the equipment they need, the space they need.
00:07:18:19 - 00:07:33:09
Alfie
Pay them well and they'll do good work. The other thing we do is, I believe very strongly that I'll get the best out my team if you're best, both personally and professionally. So we have a wellbeing coach. A lady called Dr Miguel where some of us or all of us, sometimes fortnightly or monthly,
00:07:33:11 - 00:07:41:18
Alfie
depending on what the staff want for an hour to have coaching about, not just work, but personal as well? So that idea, if we really try to do that personal development, as well as professional development.
00:07:42:07 - 00:07:46:24
Ellie
Amazing! And do you also know, as part of the Agency Collective, you've got access to the wellness hub? So...
00:07:47:00 - 00:07:51:03
Alfie
Yes, and actually I had an employee to disclose to that they used it, which is really nice.
00:07:51:11 - 00:07:52:02
Ellie
Oh, brilliant.
00:07:52:19 - 00:07:54:10
Alfie
It's really good that we have that.
00:07:55:04 - 00:08:03:23
Ellie
Have there been any massive doozies that you've made so far, or any situations where you've gone, "Arghhh! I don't know what am I doing?"
00:08:03:23 - 00:08:15:12
Alfie
Yeah, there have been, I think I probably get one of those a week, to be honest, they're not all massive. "ooh this is going to corrupt the business." Sometimes I sit there and think "I'm not doing that again."
00:08:15:16 - 00:08:28:06
Alfie
"I'm not agreeing to that deadline again." "I underquoted" That big thing for us was pricing. Yeah, a massive thing because everyone's in the middle of a pandemic, nobody had any money. But at the same time, I've always believed in paying people fairly.
00:08:28:15 - 00:08:44:07
Alfie
So I actually found that I was paying my people fairly, but the business wasn't getting renumerated fairly for the deliverables it was giving. So over 5, 6 ,7, 8 months - Paul came to us shortly after this, I underquoted. Look at how much stress it's causing me because I'm having to do bits that
00:08:44:10 - 00:08:54:07
Alfie
I shouldn't be because I've got to do it in budget. I think if I was to do it again, which, who knows, once I sell this in two years time and then do it again, I think the director's renumeration,
00:08:54:08 - 00:09:04:24
Alfie
it's more important than you realise than perhaps when you're starting. I get it because I don't have a mortgage, I didn't have commitments. Really, I've got a phone bill and a car each month I can just scrape £500, that'll do, sort of thing.
00:09:04:24 - 00:09:11:02
Alfie
Actually director's renumeration is quite important, and that's something we're trying to resolve now.
00:09:11:17 - 00:09:14:21
Ellie
So is that the plan? Build, build, build and sell?
00:09:15:12 - 00:09:33:23
Alfie
We're building out another arm of our business, which is all to do with media - buying and selling, producing good-looking content. So we're repositioning slightly to be, yes, technical, where we can build and design good websites and platforms. So adding that ancillary and we're working very closely with a couple of other agencies where we form partnerships, and I'm definitely
00:09:34:00 - 00:09:42:11
Alfie
keen to do this moving forward where actually we can... If you're,, for example, a branding agency but you don't build websites, well we become effectively your white label website builder.
00:09:42:23 - 00:09:45:09
Ellie
Yeah. Your go-to partner!
00:09:45:16 - 00:09:51:02
Alfie
Your go-to partner! So that's commercially on the sales strategy that's going to be the biggest arm for us. So over the next years. Building those partnerships.
00:09:51:06 - 00:09:52:05
Ellie
You're in the right place, mate.
00:09:53:07 - 00:10:01:13
Alfie
Defintely! Taht's why I'm here! The Slack, especially is a really good resource, because any problems you've got, I'm just there. So I ask them, you get that critical feedback, which is really good.
00:10:02:00 - 00:10:15:15
Ellie
Yeah, I think we've done pretty well. Like you, we've got a real low dickhead threshold, and it's just about that spirit of paying it forward, isn't it?, And camaraderie, being in it together, which makes me think, how did you know that you needed a community and network?
00:10:15:15 - 00:10:19:24
Ellie
Did you just think, "I need some knowledge here or I need some agency pals?" 00:10:20:03 - 00:10:35:19
Alfie
I was introduced to the Agency Collective by another member, because he's local to me and we went for coffe and he was saying this is a great resource. So then I did some Googling and I came across it and I thought, You know what, actually, it would be really interesting to see because my career plan, pre-Covid was to become an RE teacher at a secondary school.
00:10:35:19 - 00:10:36:24
Alfie
I can just go and watch
00:10:36:24 - 00:10:37:06
Ellie
RE?
00:10:37:18 - 00:10:52:23
Alfie
And say I was going to become an ethics teacher. I don't know why - couldn't be further apart from wher I am now! So I was just sat there and I was think, "Actually it would be really good to just meet and chat and see what other agencies owners do, and potentially do lead shares as well, and client side as well.
00:10:52:23 - 00:11:05:05
Alfie
"How do you handle this building? What is your service agreement look like for web posting?" Just those really simple things that actually are quite useful to just bat around. It'd be really interesting to meet the oldest managing director in the Collective.
00:11:05:20 - 00:11:07:07
Ellie
Oldest in terms of age?
00:11:07:13 - 00:11:12:13
Alfie
Well, yeah, because you've got the youngest. It'd be really interesting to meet the oldest and see what wisdom they've got.
00:11:12:13 - 00:11:20:02
Ellie
There are real pluses from lacking in experience the way that you are. Because you'll feel this, right? So you don't have any baggage holding you back.
00:11:20:06 - 00:11:30:11
Alfie
I'm incredibly naive, and that's a really good thing for a lot of the time because I think if you looked at what I did and what we do, how the last 18 months have gone. And then you did it again.
00:11:30:19 - 00:11:43:22
Alfie
You wouldn't do it. You would not! You'd go: "Well that's stupid!" But I'm sat having a whale of a time and I love it. But on the surface, it's stupid. After you dropped out of college, that's stupid. You can't go to university, that stupid.
00:11:44:07 - 00:11:54:09
Alfie
I remember having this great argument with my college lecturer at the time, and he was telling me:
"You know what the average salary is for someone that drops out of college, doesn't get a degree?"
And he was saying it's like £23,000 a year or something.
00:11:54:16 - 00:12:04:03
Alfie
And I turned around to him and said:
"Do you know, what the monthly turnover is or our business?" It was 17 that month. "So if you could tell me how that's going to compare, I'd love to know."
And then he was going,
00:12:04:04 - 00:12:18:08
Alfie
"Well what about the VAT? Are you registered?"
And I was : "Yeah, the requirements are for like £85,000 a year, of course we've registered. And we've claimed everything we could!
00:12:18:16 - 00:12:30:16
Alfie
And so a big thing of what we do, of what I want to do, is support others, give the opportunity to everyone to learn commercial awareness.. We find in the staff we hire as well. If you're commercially aware, regardless of whether you're a creative or you're a campaign manager, you're an account manager or whatever. If you've got that commercial acumen of how business functions, it's so helpful.
00:12:30:24 - 00:12:38:00
Ellie
In terms of hiring , Alfie, have you hired young, more inexperienced employees, or have you gone other way and got much more senior?
00:12:38:12 - 00:12:44:17
Alfie
We've an 18 year old, a 23 year old, a 25 year old, a 32 year old, plus Paul's 50something.
00:12:44:17 - 00:12:55:02
Alfie
So, yeah, it's a really interesting mix of people .Having technical people, plus creatives in one space is just the best thing ever because you get...like at the staff party at Christmas.
00:12:55:02 - 00:13:04:16
Alfie
We had such a dynamic of different personalities. Everyone enjoys it though. - they're accomplish in different ways of working. But we enjoy it the way is. We made use of the kickstart scheme to hire two of our staff.
00:13:05:09 - 00:13:05:19
Ellie
Brilliant.
00:13:06:09 - 00:13:10:02
Alfie
Where thay has paid placements for six months. Obviously, they're now full time employees, which is great,
00:13:10:02 - 00:13:11:01
Ellie
Oh, how wonderful!
00:13:11:01 - 00:13:19:06
Alfie
And that was a great stepping stone for us as a business as well. We actually gave out six months worth of runway to be actively putting their salary and savings, so that was great.
00:13:19:09 - 00:13:32:12
Alfie
So Tomas the kickstart student got a first class degree in animation from Kingston Uni, but graduated at the wrong time, just couldn't find a job. So we've got some absolute gems in the business and it really excites me all of the time.
00:13:33:00 - 00:13:44:20
Ellie
So just to finish up on our episode of the podcast, can you just tell me what you think your number one lesson has been? Or your number one tip for anyone maybe thinking of taking the leap and starting an agency?
00:13:45:06 - 00:13:56:13
Alfie
Think of your commercials first and foremost. What do you want? What do you as the future agency owner - what do you want? And how are you going to get there? What is it that you want a business that works for you?
00:13:57:07 - 00:14:11:01
Alfie
Or are you prepared to work for it very relentlessly for two years, or do you want something to fit around the school run because nothing is wrong with what you want? Because it's what you want. Be clear on what you want, and then the business's objectives fall around that.
00:14:11:01 - 00:14:14:24
Ellie
Great advice. Amazing. Alfie has been an absolute joy chatting to you.
00:14:16:04 - 00:14:17:17
Alfie
I thank you for having me , it's been great.
00:14:18:01 - 00:14:19:21
Ellie
Can't wait to see what you guys do next.